I’m big on education. The more you know the better your music will sound, the more jobs you will get, the more money you will be paid and the more fun you will have. Last week I was talking to a friend of mine in Spain and he was telling me about his experience at the SAE Insitute over there. First off, he told me he paid about 9000€. Immediately I let out a big gulp. Teachers should be paid yes. Equipment is expensive yes… but still. I give him “props” as he’s not a native Spanish speaker and all his classes are in Spanish. Because of this however his grades are low. This doesn’t reflect on his music or drive because his tracks are well produced and he’s involved with some decent commercial work already. However, he complains that he can never get studio time at the school except for early in the morning around 8:00AM. He also mentioned that he has several rotating substitute teachers, none of which he has confidence in. He doesn’t like that they gave him the cheapest Mac laptop (the white one). I guess he should have known which computer he was going to get before entering into the program.
I know this post could be seen as a little controversial but I got the notion it was a good topic because over at the Sound on Sound Magazine forums a new bloak asks what people think about SAE almost daily. Almost daily the reviews are mainly negative. Here’s an example: click here
“i’d do a cost analysis: student loans versus potential income. hmmmmmmm, let’s see… potential income = zero” – Sqye, Gearslutz Forum Member
So are any of you currently enrolled at SAE? What do you think? Any allumni want to chime? Is it worth it? I think a lot of people coming into the music business want to know.
Some forum threads on the subject at Gearslutz: click here and another one.
This entry was written by , posted on October 25, 2008 at 8:37 am, filed under Uncategorized and tagged learning, SAE, school. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
Great post. I don’t think it’s as controversial as it would have been a few years ago. The fact is, more people are developing the opinion that SAE and its ilk (Full Sail, etc.) are really not worth the enormous financial outlay. Don’t get me wrong: Those places are mostly staffed by competent and experienced professionals. However, as you pointed out in your post, most of the time the student is going to be dealing with substitutes and incredible competition for studio time. I almost attended SAE, but my life took another path instead. I’m personally very happy that I made that choice. For anyone considering attending one of these places, it definitely pays to think twice. In my experience, there are LOADS of opportunities these days for creative product development and commercial work for independent artists like myself and probably most of the readers of this blog. It’s all a matter of finding your niche.
Two good friends of mine just dropped off from the Berlin SAE because of the very reasons that you mentioned … You would have basicly needed to wait 4 years to get into the one only ‘proper’ studio that the school had and the rest of the studios are pretty mediocre and of course overbooked …
…
NYU PWNS THEM ALL!
Formal music technology education: Worth it?…
Interesting post over at Wire to the Ear regarding music technology education facilities, specifically SAE. I responded with the text in italics below, and I copy it here because I’d like to know if any of my readers have ever attended or are cu…
I went to SAE about 8 years ago in NYC. It was in a building in times square right next to the ‘loudest firehouse in the country’ but that’s another story. I’m writing today to warn you to stay away from SAE and it’s ilk. These places can destroy a perfectly viable dream in the name of giving a young person an ‘official education’ and probably providing their parents with some false sense of security that their children are in some kind of college. At SAE I was repeatedly told that software other than ProTools was a waste of time and that Reason was a ‘toy’. I was forced to do mundane and unproductive projects like cutting and splicing tape for as long as two weeks at a time (mind you, that would have been a really cool project for 2 days). These projects counted heavily toward my GPA, which, if not high enough, keeps you from being allowed to learn on the good equipment. Often I got the feeling they were just filling in the time gap with useless projects to justify the 15k USD pricetag. Did I mention they structure their payment plan on a curve, with the bulk of the cost of the school paid in the first 8 weeks. This is followed by the most boring and useless 3 months I’ve ever spent in my life, doing projects like the one I mentioned previously, taking pop quizzes on mindless signal flow diagrams designed to ‘prepare you to get your hands on the mackie 14 track’…an ‘honor’ earned after 8 weeks of that nonsense. It is designed to make you drop out once they have most of your money. If they didn’t lose most of their students in the first 2/3 of the program, trust me, one neve and one SSL would not be enough kit for everyone to get their finals done. As it is, it was very hard to schedule time on any of the good equipment. Their program is expensive, was, at the time completely useless (I’ve heard they’ve switched to a more EDM oriented program as of late, much like what I suggested to them at the time of my attendance, and was rudely rebuked) and ultimately creates no job opportunities to speak of other than an internship at a studio. Which is what you should do in the first place. If you want to learn how to use gear, find a good engineer or producer, and kiss his ass until he lets you get the coffee for the studio, be there all the time, learn. Eventually this will lead to a job, and you will have established good contacts along the way. The price is your cost of living, no more, and it is exponentially more educational than these so called “schools.” This is a craft we practice, and it is still handed down from one generation to the next. The people that teach at those schools, for their paltry salaries, are there because they’re not good enough to work in a good studio.
-D
At least with NYU you get a REAL degree.
I was considering going to the Miami SAE about a year ago. One of my friends was taking classes in audio production there at the time. He convinced me that it would be a waste of money and time for me to even bother going there. He had a lot of the same complaints as mentioned above. So I’m glad I never thought twice about enrolling there.
I did SAE afeer about 2 years of writing my own productions, I learnt nothing, the instructors were pepople who’d been doing my course a year ago and people in my class were asking me questions because the tutors didn’t know anything.
Case in point:
While learning about filters
me: so when was resonance first used then?
tutor: that’s part of reverb, we’ll be covering that in a couple of weeks.
me: WTF?
No word of a lie
I know very little about SAE and can’t say if it’s worthwhile or not. With any education you’ll get back what you put in and if SAE can’t provide the facilities for their students to practice on then that is obviously a problem.
However an education is quickly becoming essential in order to get work in the audio business today. Any posthouse, games & software manufacturer and so on will be reluctant to hire a person without the right qualifications.
There arn’t really any commercial studios left anymore so that’s pretty much a moot point how you get work with them.
@Case in point Blinky: Your question is incomplete to begin with so even if his/her reply was somewhat strange you got the answer you deserved.
As someone who has both attended an audio engineering course (though not SAE) and in recent years found myself teaching on similar courses I must say I do believe some sort of formal education can be of benefit… although probably not at the sort of prices charged by SAE! You can now get _very_ similar levels of education through technical colleges, universities and even some secondary schools, for a fraction of the price (the price does not always indicate the expertise of the teaching staff or the quality of equipment).
The key factors to look at when trying to decide on a course are (in order of importance):
the quality of the staff (try and speak to recent graduates, attend any open days, do your research, a small college may still have a very dedicated/experienced staff and these are the people from who you can learn;
the quality/availability of the gear-it’s all very well having a studio filled with classic/SOA gear…but no good if you can’t get access! you’re better off with multiple small project studios, make sure you get your own computer with at least one industry standard DAW/sequencer package (the cornerstone of almost any studio these days);
and lastly look at the qualification you may obtain- is it nationally/internationally recognised? can it lead in to further education? does the college have any links with institutes of higher education?
All courses will contain some projects that appear pointless/outdated, it’s a problem with a ‘one size fits all’ solution but you really do get out what you put in. The courses I’ve taught on have had many flaws (as well as strengths) but the students that went on to work in the music industry were the ones who were ALWAYS there, who just did the ‘stupid’ projects without bitching about them (or turned them into something cool), the ones who were in it for the LOVE of it and made the most of the chances they were given.
Also it’s worth considering if this is something that you want to do professionally or as a ‘hobby’… an evening course or one-to-one lessons might suit you better if there’s specific areas you want to know about e.g. dance music production as opposed to how to mic up a rock band…
Hope this is of use…
Interesting the amount of feedback on this topic. People are writing pretty lengthy responses so ill keep mine brief. I attended the Art Institute in Pittsburgh in ’95 for their “Audio and Video Business Major” This was right at the advent of Pro Tools so everything was tape and analog – which I quite enjoyed (especially all the tape cutting).
I learned some important concepts such as signal flow and……….oh yeah, the general concept of multitracking. Ive worked as a recording engineer and studio manager since then and everything else I know about audio – everything – was self taught. Mainly by reading Tape Op, Mix and trying things out.
I ended up leaving AIP after a year cause I was bored and other things were going on in life. Schools like this really are not worth the money.
The main draw is this: Its official, Im paying money for it, so I must be learning the “right” way and itll probably open more doors in the future. I wish this was the case but it simply isnt.
I recently switched gears and moved into the photography world which is strangely similar to the audio world. The truth is, you just have to go out and do it. Take the $3000 or $4000 for your first semester of school and move to New York, or LA or whatever your nearest big city is and start knocking on doors. These cities arent the answer per se, theres just way more people there and a lot more going on and so theres a greater chance for serendipitous meetings. The best and fastest way to get good at recording is to do it yourself, for your friends (for free) and slave yourself out (again probably for free at first) to people who need a go-fer in studios etc…
When I would get calls at the studio about job inquiries the ones I payed attention to were the ones who were professional and persistent.
I attended Pyramind in San Francisco (great school by the way) before moving to Los Angeles to finish up at SAE. All I can say is that after 2 months of practically teaching the classes I was supposed to be attending, I took the remainder of my tuition and withdrew from the program. SAE is a joke and WILL NOT prepare you for a career in the audio industry. I’m sorry but mastering (among many other topics) simply cannot be taught in a 16 hour “overview” of basic principles. Also, while some audio engineering schools are better than others, do not expect to learn any sort of advanced techniques pertaining to electronic music. These schools are for the wannabe rock bands. The pitiful inadequacies of places like SAE have inspired me to work towards opening an electronic music production school that is focused around teaching how to create killer tracks rather than how to solder and splice tape!!!
Well it seems people have a lot to say about this subject. This will be useful info for people considering SAE.
To be 100% honest I think there is confusion out there in the world (and in these responses)regarding what an audio engineer is. Making killer tracks isn’t what an audio engineer does, making a track SOUND killer IS what an audio engineer does. SAE stands for School of Audio Engineering, and Audio Engineers splice tape, make calibrations, takes notes, sets up mics, preps and zeros desks, creates proper signal flow between Desk, DAW, and outboard etc. and if they are lucky actually gets to work on some Killer Tracks with killer producers. I am an American currently attending an SAE college in Europe, and to be honest this has been a wonderful experience for me (I cannot speak for others) however I have seen fellow students get bad ass jobs through internships after they graduated at places like Digital Domain and Handmade films in just the short time I have been attending school. SAE does offer an EMP course (Electronic Music Production) and this seems most suited for people responding to this thread who just want to make beats, and have someone offer them a solution for ducking that bass or getting a better grip on Axwell’s tricks. But for those of you who want to work in the main stream field of Audio Engineering i.e. working in recording studios, post production facilities, or broadcast SAE has a great course for that (as mentioned previous I have seen people get jobs post graduation, as well as if you just read up on SAE graduates some have done some really amazing things…. ever heard of Radiohead’s “OK Computer”?) I am not attempting to sway anyone to come to SAE you have to make up your own mind, (and please keep in mind that I have paid them 15K so I do not benefit from posting this.) I do however think some people are a bit bitter about their own misguided experiences and to have a bit of clarification regarding what an audio engineer is and does, because if your upset about your SAE experience and what you did was splice tape and work on large format analog consoles then you really should be mad at the dictionary because those tasks are exactly what an audio engineer does day in and day out.
I’m not gonna lie, i wasnt exactly sure what an audio engineer’s job title was before i went SAE. I knew that engineering would give me the core knowledge of signal flow, working on consoles and the “lingo” to go with working in the music industry. I knew absolutely nothing about anything that had to do with audio engineering. I left SAE more than happy with the money i spent and the education i got. Like a couple of posts on here have already said, this is an AUDIO ENGINEERING SCHOOL not a school to make beats or be a lazy ass. You better be a hustler to survive in this industry and thats what they subliminally teach also. Which, to me, is just as important as learning your craft.
Now another thing i noticed while i was in school-student laziness. Im not trying to put anyone down or hype myself up but there were some students that would not show up for weeks, come in and burn someone else’s projects. Those students held up our class during the week by showing up late when they did show up and then be the people that complained the most and thought they deserved a break. While a student, i saw 3 classes graduate (one right when i started so i didnt ACTUALLY see them) and there were at least 3-4 of those students in each class. Which also goes for any college but SAE let those people do what they had to do to stick through and finish the course. I have friends that went to universities and they wouldnt stand for a good portion of the shit that SAE put up with.
Now on the flip side, MOST students were more than willing to work cohesively with each other and help each other out. We had workshops on whatever topic we felt we needed-which 90% of my class declined to attend. We could get tutoring on whatever we needed-again 90% of my class declined to receive. They had projects that integrated with what you were learning at that particular time. Sometimes i ran into problems with the gear. Now that im out of school, i realize that this happens in every studio every day. Some teachers i felt were not worthy of teaching some classes but i took it in stride. Read up in the books i received and learned it on my own. Right, mastering can not be taught in a week, 2 weeks, or 2 years. Its taught with time and experience. For me the mastering class just let me know what mastering was. Because I didnt know.
Every school or business has its flaws. When you have a school that is centralized around audio, its gonna be hard to keep teachers around when they are in the industry making moves. Especially if you go to the LA campus because obviously, its in LA. As far as studio time is concerned, i never had a problem booking time. There were students that did because they had a work schedule to book around. I was fortunate enough to not have to work while i was in school.
All in all, you get out what you put in. I know students that worked their ass off and got a good internship or job. I know students that didnt work hard at all in school and still got a good internship or job. That proves you dont NEED a school but it can never hurt you.
I met shit loads of people at SAE, which taught me more than just audio engineering-it taught me how to adapt to different personalities. Especially in the studio. Which is the most important thing.
Im not here to make you want to go to SAE or not go there but to help people realize what type of school it is. Because a lot of people think its for making beats…….and for all you slackers im comin for your job!
What Engineer for Jazz said is 100% true. If you want to make beats, then why are you complaining about an audio engineering course? When you’re done building SFLR (School of Fruity Loops and Reason) let me know so I know what school to steer my friends away from. The school for “wannabe rock bands” is actually Musician’s Institute in Hollywood. That is where you can “learn” how to play guitar, drums, and other instruments. So I think what you’re trying to do is to create the electronic version of M.I., correct? Constructing an exact replica of the Titanic seems intriguing. Let us know how that turns out. I attended SAE mainly because two of my friends previously attended another school in the L.A. area and came back with little knowledge after the program. They had ZERO studio time and did not receive any of the software from the school. I enrolled in SAE in 2006 and it was definitely worth the money. The staff there was very helpful and had no problems or regrets upon graduating. I did not enroll with the intentions that I was going to be a bad ass Fruity Loops master. I wanted to learn how to run Pro Tools, large format consoles, and microphone techniques. Just like with any school whether Harvard or DeVry, you’re going to get what you put into it. I utilized all the studios on campus and learned how to run a Neve and an SSL as opposed to just listening to lectures on the consoles. I also picked the brains of all the teachers who were actual engineers in the industry and researched topics of my own and left more than prepared to go out into the industry. It’s been 2 years since I graduated and I can honestly say that SAE was a great experience. I would love to know who you are Mr. Waste of Money since you attended the L.A. school as well. Til then, good luck reinventing the Titanic.
a friend of mine told about this post and In couldn’t believe men; I’ve made AED program at SAE barcelona and I had the opportunity of putting my hands for hours and hours in such mixers like SSL, C24, DXB an of course the ICON; I had some great teachers (chhers Tato!!). I studied and work hard, I got my Diploma with 87/100, back to the city Iwas born and I’m working in live festival PA stuff. It’s as simple as that. The bullshit I can read in some of the comments to this post is the same ?i’ve been suffered while studying at SAE: mates that waste their time, don’t study, dont prctice, lose their studio bookings and are fooling around all the time. On top of that, I totally agree with Engineer for Jazz: those who wants to be “disco anthems makers”, probably don’t need SAE (probably DO need everything)
hi there,
people write a lot about SAE on sites like this, many of them have wrong information. just one example (quotation from above):
‘Two good friends of mine just dropped off from the Berlin SAE because of the very reasons that you mentioned … You would have basicly needed to wait 4 years to get into the one only ‘proper’ studio that the school had and the rest of the studios are pretty mediocre and of course overbooked …’
the audio engineering diploma course lasts 12 month fulltime or 24 month parttime. it is IMPOSSIBLE to wait 4 years for a studio when the course lasts 1 or 2 years.
SAE berlin has 13 studio rooms for audio students, the three big studios are equipped with an SSL 4000 console, a neve 88RS and a D-Control. detailed information and pictures can be found here: http://www2.sae.edu/de/equipment.php?id=43&pageid=11&action=cat1
i’m sure all of you agree that this is everything but ‘mediocre’. ;-)
the studios are not overbooked (in fact they are booked about 60% of the time. this can easily be checked in our booking system in SAE berlin).
please be careful with (mostly anonymous) forum-posts. there is a very easy way to get TRUE information: visit a class at the SAE institute you’re interested in and talk to the CURRENT STUDENTS. they pay the fees and they tell you if they are happy with the school. this is the best source of information!
you can visit SAE berlin at any time, please contact me (also in case of further questions): t.kraemer@sae.edu
+49-30-4309447
regards, timo
SAE berlin
sorry, wrong phone number
+49-30-43094470
cheers, timo.
Thanks Timo. It’s good to hear from someone at SAE. As I mentioned in my original post above I have no personal experience with SAE. I was just repeating what a friend was telling me earlier that morning. Is it possible the Berlin SAE sets a higher standard than the ones in Spain?
i’m an alumni from the Los Angeles campus of SAE and i’m reading these reviews and seeing that A LOT of the people that go to SAE thinking they’ll go and come out making money day one are completely naive. I mean they are forgetting that the music industry is one of the hardest scenes to get into. Not to mention staying in there. students who complain about the gear they get when they started obviously didn’t feel they needed to (or couldn’t) upgrade to a better computer. And i’m pretty sure that every teacher, and i mean EVERY teacher says that it is a hard road to travel to be successful in the audio industry, one even laid out a 10 year plan for success. i know what you’re thinking, “10 years!!!! that’s a long time” of course it is, but if you follow your passion it won’t feel like it. i’ll admit that i’ve been lazy about scoring audio gigs since i graduated, but i have other obligations with family that need to be tied up. that being said i’ll add more, i haven’t stopped going to “school” since i graduated, i choose to immerse myself in audio technology so that i never lose sight of my passion for recording. in my eyes SAE was a great value, i went in there knowing very little and came out knowing enough to make me hungry for more…SAE is not a “one-shot kill” it is however a good boost and a step in the right direction, a spark if you will. If anyone wants to shoot down SAE fine, but let sheir skill and their work speak for them. And all the talk about not being able to get studio time, i’m sorry but it’s your fault you can’t mange your own time enough to remember to book a studio for your projects/sessions, i never ever had a problem with that. i guess my bottom line is this, knowing what i do now about SAE, if i stepped back in time would i do it again? the answer is yes, i had a great time, met and collaborated with awesome people, got exposed to music i never even thought i would like (and loved it), and all while learning a new, interesting, and creative skill set.
Oliver,
I’m actually surprised to read your last question, after all the opinions posted in the thread. It makes evident that there’s a marked division between those who approve of formal education in audio and those who don’t; of those who had a good experience in several branches of SAE and those who didn’t. But even though I appreciate the correctness and impartiality of your original post (even if it was based to a certain extent on “hear say”), suggesting that different campuses have a different quality standard because a friend of yours had a bad experience is off the mark by a long way.
I can assure you the SAE standard is consistent across countries. We have a well thought-out studio and workstation booking system, designed to guarantee individual practical time to ALL students and to foster proactivity (a must in this industry). This means that students have to ACT and be proactive in order to take their bookings.
I’ll give you an example: a recent research in our Barcelona campus showed that 50% of guaranteed studio time had not been booked by students. Considering that they receive a handbook with a detailed explanation of how the system works as well as extensive lectures on session planning and coaching on the subject by staff throughout the course, the only explanation for this is that some are not acting timely or according to the rules.
And maybe it’s what happened to your friend.
Believe me, successful graduates – those who were there day-in-day-out exercising this proactive approach and lived from workstation to the studio back to a workstation and so forth – they thank us the extra ‘push’ years after graduation.
Still, I don’t want you to take my word for it: we have virtual tours of both Spanish campuses and extensive photos of the facilities. A brief check at them will allow you to notice that they’re very well equipped. And a visit to the successful graduates section will hint that they do find a job, and not just any job (incidentally, there are over 500 job offers in our international alumni community ‘mysae.org’ at the moment).
And before finishing, I’d like to mention that in Spain our student numbers have been growing at a double-digit rate consistently year after year. Statistically, the biggest enrolment source is word of mouth. You just can’t achieve that by providing “unworthy service like the ilk”. Not in a connected world like ours, where everyone can share their opinion almost instantly (like in this thread).
It’s always a good exercise to have different points of view in order to better inform the general public and I congratulate you for the initiative. In fact, it’s not our policy to take part in posts like these, to safeguard freedom of expression. But we thought certain facts should be stated and clarified in contrast to some “hear say” that managed to sip through.
I hope it’s clearer now. And if not, we will be pleased to clarify more. As Timo well said, all our campuses are open for anyone to visit, so please feel free.
Cheers,
Sandro
p.s. Oh, and before I forget: you should have asked for permission before pasting our logo at the header, after all it’s a copyrighted trademark ;-)
Hello Sandro. I am glad to see you posting here too. The fact that SAE employees feel compelled to join in the discussion is quite a good thing and that alone reflects well on the school. Considering how heated this thread has become I wish I could have my friend in Spain comment under his real name however because he is currently still at the school he wishes to remain anonymous. I have no first hand experience with any SAE school therefore it was an honest request for opinions I threw out there. Good or bad I do not delete any comments unless they are spam. I also believe common sense dictates that people who are disappointed in a product or service or more likely to comment. I still feel it’s important to have unbiased reviews on something that will take a multi year commitment and payment.
Concerning the logo. I am very careful on the blog how I use images. If I am not the copyright holder I always first search for Creative Commons licensed equivalent and give attribution where due. In the case which I use a corporate logo I am following the fair use doctrine of United States copyright law. For more information about Fair Use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use. And here: Wikipedia:Non-free_content
As you can see Wikipedia itself displays the SAE logo under the spire of fair use here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SAE_Institute_Logo.gif
wiretotheear: video discussion about fair use
Thanks for the clarification Oliver.
And regarding your friend, I’m sincerely curious to learn more about his experience. If he thinks that talking to management could help, feel free to pass him my contact.
Cheers
Here’s a link which has some really useful information even from the SAE Staff itself
http://lithax.wordpress.com/2006/06/13/whats-so-wrong-with-sae-anyway/
I am a SAE Nashville diploma recipient. I could complain for twenty minutes about different aspects of how my class was run or some of the facilities, but it would be pointless. At SAE you have the opportunity to learn as much as you would like to work for, period. The fewer of your opportunities you undertake the less successful you will be. I want to be in the music industry because music makes me happy, in nine months I know enough to go out on my own. Cheap if you ask me.
Oh p.s.
Hustle or fail bitch.
I am a staff member at sae london and i agree with a of the comments. Last year a huge number of our staff left due to the incompetence of our manager as he introduced poor staff contracts and even now over 6 months later we still haven’t signed them. One of the lecturers who left had been here more than 12 years and the knowledge of a valued staff member like that can’t be replaced.
Finished my course at SAE institute in London last year and still I’ve not received any certificate, the management there is an absolute joke, it’s been more than 6 months now.
I most admit I had one of the best lecturers though, but sadly he left a few weeks before we completed the Electronic music production course.
I’ve studied at both London campuses, new and old. To be honest, yeah the new place looks great but it’s a total waste of money. There is absolutely no guidance or encouragement for students in this branch. The staff are pissed off, there’s no passion or flare. ( Carlos is the only asset along with the equipment). The place is completely disorganized. The studios while excellent are pretty much ornimental as they are mostly locked up. students are expected to sit in slow theory lectures taking in all the information on an almost hypathetical basis for the guts of a year before they can so much as look at a console. This theory aspect is essential as it is an engineering subject but you will find little by way of tangibility in the first 12 months. Most lecturers don’t give a shit either, you might as well be doing a distance course. Their lack of confidence in their own knowledge of engineering and the subjects taught is embarrassingly obvious.
…Hear me when I say this is SAE London..not SAE in general. I have friends who have studied at various SAE’s around Europe and got what they paid for. Luckily I could see it was the staff and management who had made SAE London the joke that it is. I have since transfered and graduated at another SAE and it is an AMAZING school. A totally different story. Enthusiastic lecturers, Studio time, experience, much more professional and hands on. A theory lecture is not complete until it is then repeated practically in the studio so that all students have a fully comprehensive demonstration and leave with a clear understanding. There you are being prepared for employment, thats the difference. At SAE London once you’ve handed over the money no one gives a shit, the lecturers ( you may have up to five different lecturers in the space of 3 months) turn up looking pissed off and uncomfortable, and give of the strong impression of sad failed musicians/producers who are making a vain attempt to repay their college fees by disinterestedly reading notes of the internet. ANYONE can do this, how fucking dare you. Get a job in a record store or something cause you are not educators and you are not engineers. It’s actually insulting. I don’t know if the manager is entirely to blame but every superior has a superior and someone should be accountable at this point.
Anyway my point is, SAE..shame on you for allowing this happen to one of your branches, after so much money has been spent on it and such a great city it is in..it’s pure extorsion. It could be a credit to the industry but this particular branch is just giving the rest of us a bad name.
However, there are some excellent campuses with excellent lecturers who care and have great teaching methods..and EVEN LET THE STUDENTS INTO THE STUDIO..what a novel idea?
Yes I have used SAE for what I wanted from it, I found a good one and am delighted it finally went the direction it promised to from the beginning. Engineering is an art to be taught by artists.
But SAE LONDON you’re a fucking joke, thanks for nothing.
I’m a former student at SAE London and also I know a lot of the staff that left last year. I did the BA degree course. Since finishing I’ve heard a lot of stories from some of the former members of staff mainly regarding the incompetence of the manager, which as a former student I experienced first hand as I was the class rep.
I am not here to say what’s right or wrong, merely to point out that it’s your money and time. SAE might have a lot of equipment but does that make it better? I’ve been there and I can assure you it makes no difference as they have so many rules and regulations to when and how they can be used.
Ask yourself why at most other audio engineering colleges in the UK you get certificates in Protools etc in addition to your diploma/degree, and why all teaching staff must have teaching qualification.
At SAE your teacher is a former diploma student so what do you really learn?
So question is would you rather have a former student as your lecturer or someone with a qualification and industry experience?
I went to SAE Institute in London for their last Open Day, prior to going there I did a bit of research and read this and other articles. I must admit that I did get the impression that some of the staff are former students, I asked some of them what they had worked on in the industry and basically got no reply, all they wanted to talk about was how good the college is.
Meeting the manager was hilarious there’s a of stuff on different forums about the lack of respect for him from both staff and students, and it showed. Again basic questions were left unanswered.
I have made my decision NOT to go to SAE London based on the impressions I got from the open day and from what I have heard and read. There are so many options for us students now and it is worth shopping around. And as the above student said I really would like to get Logic Pro and Protools certificates as well without having to pay extra.
I myself attend SAE in Auckland, New Zealand.
I understand all these comments about SAE tutors not been helpful or educated enough etc.
We have one of the best SAE institutes in the world, next to Australia, and our music/film industry is constantly in need of audio engineers, here we basically have a guaranteed job as soon as you graduate, whether it be assistant engineer at a studio or part time work doing sound for clubs, television, bars and live venues just about anywhere in the country.
I’m sorry to hear that not all SAE institutes are run as well as ours, and at other SAE institutes you are told like pro tools is the only good MTR software because we are taught that that just isn’t the case.
And no, SAE is not taught just by diploma holding ex students, we have tutors with Doctrines and people with years of experience in the music and film industry.
In the end, like it has been mentioned above a few times, you only get the good job offers and knowledge from how hard you work at it while you there. Those of you who are having a rant about how much of a waist of time it was for you etc, are most likely the ones who book studio time last and put your social life etc before your studies.
Fuck you! You most likely only did this course because your useless at everything else in your life and you have this fucked up fantasy, that has come to by way of the bullshit television absorbing culture we live in, that being an audio engineer is about recording a band and making a fuck load of money. Wrong. It is about capturing music the best you can to translate to an audience the expression of an artist.
If you think that the course is too expensive for what you get out of it, thats only because you didn’t put your all into it. The knowledge and experience you get from this course puts you MILES ahead of anyone trying to get into this industry on their own.
That’s not saying you can’t make a successful chart topping hit without going to SAE, you can, but ANYONE can make a fucking metronome loop and put some catchy bubblegum lyrics to it whether it be rap, pop, rock…whatever it may be that tops our charts.
Audio engineering is a lot more than push record, burn, $$$.
It’s like art, you do it because it fulfills you, not to make money.
“but ANYONE can make a fucking metronome loop and put some catchy bubblegum lyrics to it whether it be rap, pop, rock…whatever it may be that tops our charts”
if that’s true don’t you think we’d all be doing it?
I’m a staff member at SAE London and most of us working here are former students but maybe you are right that’s not the case in all SAE colleges, but I think we are all aware how difficult it is to get into the industry and that not many studios will take on SAE students.
Wow for real, here in NZ all the best studios come to SAE for first pickings in jobs. I guess this being a community-like industry, in our country, that its a lot easier to find a job.
Oh shit I just re-read my first comment, what I meant to say was:
“I myself attend SAE in Auckland, New Zealand.
I DON’T understand all these comments about SAE tutors not been helpful or educated enough etc.”
This is how they make money at SAE
http://saeoxford.blogspot.com/
This message is for Steve Moreland,
Steve,
My name is Shane and I have actually been looking into going to the SAE program in LA but would really like to talk to someone who has actually taken the program and compare it to say, Full Sail. Or just to get a general idea of the people, the instructors, the staff, the equipment/studios, and the education you get/got from it.
I’ve been a DJ for a decade now, and I’m currently trying to pursue my career goals since I just finished a B.S. in Management/Administration. I wanted to work more on the technical side of audio since i’ve been involved in music, and music really is my passion in life and I want to pursue that career field much more thoroughly and detailed and want to go to a good school.
Your comments made about SAE have definitely left a good impression on me about the school, as this forum, as well as other forums on the net, have said the good and bad things about SAE as well as Full Sail.
If there could be anyway I could get in contact with you, whether that be through email, phone, or AIM, I’d really appreciate any help, suggestions, recommendations, etc. Thanks so much!
I really hope that when people come to SAE for tours/open days they seriously question the manager especially here at SAE London.
Us working here are really amazed that Matthias is still in control after having lost most of the workforce and the class numbers have dropped. It’s like the one person that should have lost his job is being rewarded.
Good topic and discussion!
On the SOS forum there’s also an interesting post and I quote “SAE is just a jolly good day out at an audio amusement park. The qualifications aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.”
There’s even comments from the manager at SAE Institute London, Matthias Postel
Link to SOS Forum:
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=669794&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#669794
Hello,
This message is for Patrick. who mentioned his friend convinced him NOT to go to the SAE MIAMI campus.
I visited the Miami Campus, enquiring some info about their programs. It looked interesting to me.
Is there a particular reason why your friend did not enjoy it?? I am very interested in this, however I am affraid of losing that money that I put into it. Especially since making money is more difficult. (cheers to the economy! Hopefully it gets better)
Anyways, If there is anyone here that has attended the SAE MIAMI campus that would like to chime in some opinions / feedback. Please do. As I would like to gather as much information as possible.
Don’t go to SAE London, it’s nothing but a scam.
I went t the opening party at SAE Institute in Hackney, London. Funny how they claim on their web that it was attended by 150 people it was more like 40 lol
Hi
A friend of mine sent me a link to read this, seeing that i am studying at London at the moment and he is considering the film course. From first hand, i can say that there is some odd stuff on here. I can’t say that some of the views on here are things that i agree with or see.
@Ioma -considering the vast improvement in my understanding of sound and production, can’t say i feel its a scam. I’m getting the tuition i expected, and having studied at quite a few different schools (it took me a while to figure out this is what i really enjoy doing), it certainly feels professionaly run, and some of the lecturers and supervisors have really opened my understanding.
i can see how there my be disgruntled ex-students out there who feel they didn’t get a fair deal. I can’t talk for all or any of those really, but i did know one guy who did drop out pissed off, but to be honest, he was just pissed that he wasn’t hitting the mark. I harldy ever saw him make an effort, and from conversations i had with him at the beginning, there were some delusions of grandeur, and unwillingness to pick up what he was being told. Good luck to him and all, but i remember he spent more time talking about weed then he did about recording.
Bottom line is, i am finding that the help is there, and it isn’t the patronising spoon feedy, “let me do it for ya”, type help. Its that encoureging velvet glove type help, to learn how to figure it out, and keep the pennies dropping. When i say i don’t understand, i can’t count the number of times a supervisor has tried a differnet way for me to get it…sometimes i didnt until a few days after(or weeks :-P )… but still i’m miles ahead from where i was, and i’m racking as much time as i can on every piece of gear to keep practising.
Well, that’s my piece anyway, hope it helps.
Last note: Is it just me or does anyone find it strange that someone would be working for SAE and slagging it off at the same time here (and after a bit of research on quite a few other sites – almost identical posts).
I mean honestly, i was at the party, i don’t know how many people there where. BUt it sure as heck felt more than 40….and no it wasn’t double vision.. (even though i did try to drink my fees back :-P )
Is learning at the SAE Institute worthwhile?
Absolutely not. Especially SAE London, I know from a very reliable source that to this day around 20 staff members have left since July/August last year due to the manager and ridicules staff contracts, also the staff member told me that sae london has around 25 permanent staff members so they have lost over half of their staff,
but like someone else pointed out they have enough former students to employ. LOL
something must be wrong for people to leave their job in these difficult economic times, no?
What then would everyone on here suggest to be the best college in london, for me to go into to pursuit a career in music production. Starting at diploma level and working up to a masters (i hope).
??
well you can start at any audio engineering college I would personally suggest PointBlank, Alchemea or any other college where you get Protools and Logic pro Certificates as well as your diploma. You won’t get any of those at SAE. Then continue at Middlesex for a BA/MA or one of the many other universities offering that. Also you can look into some of the other Sound engineering colleges offering BA’s.
John
To J.D
I did the diploma course at sae in london last year, and I too had quite a few problems and issues during my course, one of the main things is that the college suddenly WITHOUT NOTICE close on weekends. As part time student with full time job it was impossible for me to record people during the week and I solely relied on the weekends. We, the class, complained and wrote number of emails to the manager but nothing happened, even our own lecturer backed us up on our points and he basically told the whole class that he personally felt the manager were not in charge of anything at sae, he told us that even when staff brought up points he would just ignore them.
My lecturer eventually resigned. my point is that I can fully understand those staff members working at sae trying to use sites like this to be “heard” if speaking up at where they work doesn’t help.
Any way I finished and passed the diploma and have since applied for a number of jobs without luck so far :(
I do agree that most staff were very helpful, I had a great lecturer, though I must admit it was weird seeing students that you used to hang out with become supervivors and lecturers but I guess that’s the sae way of doing things.
And to add to all of this have you noticed the dodgy company names popping up with companies house?
SAE Educational Trust Ltd
but now our of nowhere, SAE Education Ltd (bear in mind the Brooke Point address is their accounts).. bit suss eh especially after formerly being called OST Charity :)
Also hear that the Qantm London office may even operate without any educational license for the property..
The manager of London has no common sense what so ever. You’ll read in here loads about how completely useless he is.. I think this has even been worded nicely based on how bad the situation was. Even though they had an external company in to do the build out he STILL managed to ‘forget’ about ordering power.. thats why no one could move into the building on time. Oh and the fact he ‘forgot’ half the furniture..
Contrary to what many of you have said about SAE, I believe that SAE is a wonderful world-wide institution. I came to SAE-LA simply to learn about the music business before I dive into it. When I graduated (last July) I came out more prepared than I ever could have imagined! I now have skills of an sound engineer (something I thought I’d never do), I’ve become a better singer (because I had been asked to grace so many projects), a better songwriter, (because I would write the lyrics, etc), and all around, a better musician! I have learned that there is so much more to the world of recording than just music, there’s foley, sound for film and television– all something I enjoy!
I do not regret ever attending SAE, because I am certainly a better person for it. I, along with many of my amigos, have been trained by some of the best instructors, musicians, and people in the business.
In my opinion, it does not matter if you paid $50.00 or $50,000 to attend a school–what really matters is what you have done with the knowledge that you’ve gained.
I graduated as a full time student from SAE Nashville and I must say a lot of points being brought up concern me coming from friends of people at SAE or people who have heard about SAE but Not full time students.
I did not have any problem booking time for the bigger studios. booking time is about how you manage yourself as is the case with any studio. The SAE booking system is a first come first serve system as are most studios, if you wait and don’t have your act together you won’t get a spot. on the occasion when we needed a certain spot that was already booked we would talk with our classmates and see if their session could be moved or shortened.
The SAE instructors our class had have very very good backgrounds, some having worked in live sound for 20-30 years others with big name artists and big name studios working in top studios for 40 or so years and some with multiple grammy nominations. we had many visits from big artists and top producers and engineers for people like Michal Jackson and Britney Spears, including a Disney sound Engineer who really was an inspiration and gave a great presentation.
About the laptops: an order form was given out before class ever started with 4 different apple laptops including the highest end MBP and 3 models of mbox from the mbox 2 mini to the mbox 2 pro with upgrade prices.
The staff was very friendly and helpful with anything we needed and was always asking for suggestions and ideas. each class voted on a class rep. who would also sit in on meetings.
when we ran into problems it was mostly from students who did not have there act together (possibly thinking it was a pushover school ) or people who were asking for more than was realistically possible, all of these problems were sorted out quickly.
as to a ”real” degree. education is education and the only thing that separates the diploma is the classification. this course might take only 9 months, but how long would it take in collage if you took out the non audio courses and went to school that many days a week for just the audio. this course is more hands on than alot of other schools and puts you in the spot to have to actually run your sessions in a real world environment under real conditions. I have talked to many students from one of the top audio programs in the world who left to come to SAE and said there were simply too many students in the program to do anything hands on and that they never really got to use the gear they learned about while sitting in the classroom.
maybe at SAE they are also teaching you how to be responsible and manage your time and sessions while knowing how to work under pressure, clients are not very forgiving and can’t just work around your schedule. something will always go wrong in a studio, places and artists will be booked and you will be short on time, you will have to know how to work around it. this is not the schools fault, this is the industry.
As you may have noticed, SAE has taken an interest in your posting Mr. Chesler. :)
I can only speak from my own experience as an alumni of the Amsterdam campus, but I found my 12 months there to be near-perfect.
The first 3 months were spent doing a frankly insulting Basic Media Certificate course, where we were walked through the most basic of music, film and image editing. About half our class dropped out before this was over, and to be honest I couldn’t fully blame them. I knew that more interesting things were on the way at the end, so stuck with it (and skipped a few lessons).
That all changed when the course proper began. We had one teacher for the entire trimester who was an absolute genius with sound theory. Had the answers to all our questions on the tip of his tongue, was a highly engaging teacher and we learnt an absolute truck-load of invaluable material. After 3 months, we moved onto another guy who, frankly, wasn’t so good – no offense to him as a person, but after our first teacher he was a bit more anarchic in his lesson planning and explanations – and attendance in our class took a nosedive to where it was only the fully committed left. Following that, another 3 months was spent with another guy who was as good as the first. We started with 17 people, and 4 of those sat the final exam because it was too hard for the rest.
Over those 9 months, I recorded on a Mackie DXB, TL Audio VTC, SSL 4000+ broadcast desk and Digidesign’s Icon, but more than that they focused on the theory of recording rather than just teaching us how this desk and that desk works, which means I can now approach any desk – live or in the studio – with total confidence in signal flow.
Studio time was hard to come by, I’m not going to lie, but that just seperates the men from the boys really – were you prepared to book your studio time as soon as it became available or did you wait until the last week and then get pissed off that other students had taken the bookings? Well, then you aren’t committed enough! SAE is no walk in the park, and anyone who says it’s just giving money for a guaranteed degree clearly has no idea.
I really cannot put into words here how much I learnt, and what a different person I feel I have become following this period. I went there because I had been trying to make my own music and thought production skills would help – I left wanting to help truly great musicians bring their music to the world, and maybe do my own thing later.
Is that going to be the same for the other SAE schools? Well, of course not – they have different staff, different facilities… this is a worldwide organisation that has to divide it’s funds as it can. Could they have done things differently? Sure. Were there things that I thought should be different even at SAE Amsterdam? Sure. But to dismiss the whole brand as something people should avoid is a big mistake.
Hi there Cameron.
A few quick questions about SAE Amsterdam
I am planning to study at SAE Amsterdam in November. I have already completed my diploma at SAE Auckland NZ. I applied many months ago to the Degree programme and have still not been accepted. Did you have any problems with the administration there? Every time I email them they tell me my application will be processed in due course. There doesnt seem to be any regard for the fact that I have to move to a new country etc. Also how were the facilities there? And lastly what was the ratio of Graduate teachers to Industry Professional Teachers? I know at SAE Auckland most of my teachers only graduated a few years before me.
Thanks a lot for reading this, I will greatly appreciate your advice.
Richard
Hi all and cheers Oliver,
By one of this coincidences of life I’m based in the UK at the moment. A colleague here brought my attention to the thread and since i had already participated in the past I decided to drop by again.
I see the rate of posting is still healthy, with opinions for the good and for the bad. Being in the UK for just a few weeks lends me an outsider’s perspective which i believe could be helpful.
I would like to raise some questions as food for thought:
a) I wonder how someone incompetent could be able to coordinate the construction of a world class facility like the new SAE London? It’s several floors of studios, classrooms and more, in a multi-million pound investment. How could it be?
b) Several posts mention the hiring of graduates and seem to suggest everyone working for the company falls in that category. A few UK staff names from the top of my head (Carlos Lellis, Ian Walman, Gareth Green, prof. Bridger, Roey Itzhaki), are all professionals with years of experience in their respective fields and so are many others. The hiring of graduates does happen, but that is also the case even in high standing universities such as Oxford or Harvard. As a company, when you spot talent you have to get hold of it. The key question is: what positions are these graduates given?
c) What does a change of company status have to do with the education provided? Several big companies have done and do such changes for business and/or fiscal reasons, without customers even realising the change took place;
Audio education is not for everyone and choosing where to do it is no easy task. SAE is the most prominent name in the industry but definitely not the only one. Whoever is considering making such a move should study the options available, get well informed – read, research. A visit to the facilities at hand and speak to the tutors is of great help, if possible. All that will help separate fact from hearsay or gratuitous comments when reading threads like these and reach a decision with confidence.
Hope it helps.
Cheers