Comments on: Keep your channel faders low and the Master at 0db! http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/ Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:20:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: wire to the ear » Blog Archive » Keep a Limiter on your Master http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-6496 wire to the ear » Blog Archive » Keep a Limiter on your Master Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:12:33 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-6496 [...] explain my reasoning in an older post from January 2008. You can read it and the great comments by: clicking here. A safety net or let’s say helper in keeping your Master at 0db is a Limiter. Luckily [...]

[...] explain my reasoning in an older post from January 2008. You can read it and the great comments by: clicking here. A safety net or let’s say helper in keeping your Master at 0db is a Limiter. Luckily [...]

]]> By: kostistlac http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-5700 kostistlac Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:11:57 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-5700 ... is this rule working on digital mixers too? I have Yamaha 01V/16. I´m not working with software sequencers, just recording output to Wavelab. … is this rule working on digital mixers too? I have Yamaha 01V/16. I´m not working with software sequencers, just recording output to Wavelab.

]]> By: JP²² http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-4519 JP²² Fri, 29 May 2009 00:30:28 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-4519 Hi, interesting advice. However, I will have to say that I totally agree with the comment user william sharkey made just above. This basically the same thing as setting a limiter (or a compressor with a "soft clip" for that matter) at -3db, on the master fader. Mathematically speaking, I'm not totally sure.. but personally I think messing with individual channel faders to comply with -12db might also still essentially take away from each channel's volume characteristics. Meaning, since every instrument channel most likely has different EQ dynamics (i.e.; arbitrary highs/mids/lows, etc.), setting them all to a certain sum would essentially be the same as using a "brickwall" type limiter on a master fader, just before mastering, which also leaves the "-0.1" option in the dark. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the standard for a mixdown just before mastering is -3.0db, and -0.1 is well above a mastering level to be set on a master fader. My opinion.. Hi, interesting advice. However, I will have to say that I totally agree with the comment user william sharkey made just above. This basically the same thing as setting a limiter (or a compressor with a “soft clip” for that matter) at -3db, on the master fader. Mathematically speaking, I’m not totally sure.. but personally I think messing with individual channel faders to comply with -12db might also still essentially take away from each channel’s volume characteristics. Meaning, since every instrument channel most likely has different EQ dynamics (i.e.; arbitrary highs/mids/lows, etc.), setting them all to a certain sum would essentially be the same as using a “brickwall” type limiter on a master fader, just before mastering, which also leaves the “-0.1″ option in the dark. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the standard for a mixdown just before mastering is -3.0db, and -0.1 is well above a mastering level to be set on a master fader. My opinion..

]]> By: Oliver Chesler http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-4347 Oliver Chesler Sat, 09 May 2009 17:47:58 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-4347 Yes I keep the Sends a bit low too... the key is not to overdrive (at least when it comes to Ableton's summing). Yes I keep the Sends a bit low too… the key is not to overdrive (at least when it comes to Ableton’s summing).

]]> By: continuous http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-4341 continuous Fri, 08 May 2009 22:32:08 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-4341 Thanx for the tips! Quick question... do you also bring the track volumes of your Return tracks down to -12db or do you leave these at zero? I have a couple of them running out and back to effects (KaossPad3 and Big Muff Fuzz) if that makes any difference. Thanx for the tips!

Quick question… do you also bring the track volumes of your Return tracks down to -12db or do you leave these at zero? I have a couple of them running out and back to effects (KaossPad3 and Big Muff Fuzz) if that makes any difference.

]]> By: Dan Sampayo http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-3836 Dan Sampayo Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:31:18 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-3836 Very good technique. Most people whack the bass too loud and wonder why it sounds muddy. In Ableton I normally get the tracks how I like them sounding without taking "red" in consideration and no limiters. Then once all tracks are done I lower everything to the point of no red and then put a mastering limiter on the master to get the volume back up. Very good technique. Most people whack the bass too loud and wonder why it sounds muddy. In Ableton I normally get the tracks how I like them sounding without taking “red” in consideration and no limiters. Then once all tracks are done I lower everything to the point of no red and then put a mastering limiter on the master to get the volume back up.

]]> By: william sharkey http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-3236 william sharkey Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:55:53 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-3236 I liked the historical context however I disagree on the technical aspects. 1. Turning down a channel's volume (or up) will not affect that channel's plug-ins at all. It will not overdrive them. The reason is that the fader is the last thing in that channel's signal chain. 2. Ableton live internally processes at 32 bits. 8 of these bits are used for an exponent multiplier, and the other 24 bits are used normally, linear like a wave file or an audio cd. The consequence of the exponential multiplier is that you have tons of headroom. You could have your signals boosted 100 db or more and still be fine, so long as you cut the level by 100db in an insert on the master channel. Internal "clipping" does not normally happen in the host (ableton) as the result of any "summing". Clipping can happen in plug-ins, if they are programed that way, however this can always be avoided by placing a plug-ing before it and adjusting the gain. Clipping can happen when it is rendered, because at that point it uses a linear format, like a 16 or 32bit wave, and does not have the luxury of those 8 exponential bits. 3. You are correct that plug-ins may be overdriven, however in your scenario, you could just set the prepre-gain slider on the master channel's limiter to -12db instead of turning your channels down -12 db. It would be the same thing mathematically. 4. I think you might be confusing when you say you "set the limiter at -.1db". This limiter does not give you the option to set the max db. It is probably hard coded to operate at 0db. What you set was the pre gain. I am not saying that your experience with improved sound quality is fake. It is real I am sure, however it is probably the result of hitting a master limiter/compressor/mastering-plugin too hard and does not have to do with internal "summing". I liked the historical context however I disagree on the technical aspects.

1. Turning down a channel’s volume (or up) will not affect that channel’s plug-ins at all. It will not overdrive them. The reason is that the fader is the last thing in that channel’s signal chain.

2. Ableton live internally processes at 32 bits. 8 of these bits are used for an exponent multiplier, and the other 24 bits are used normally, linear like a wave file or an audio cd. The consequence of the exponential multiplier is that you have tons of headroom. You could have your signals boosted 100 db or more and still be fine, so long as you cut the level by 100db in an insert on the master channel.

Internal “clipping” does not normally happen in the host (ableton) as the result of any “summing”. Clipping can happen in plug-ins, if they are programed that way, however this can always be avoided by placing a plug-ing before it and adjusting the gain.

Clipping can happen when it is rendered, because at that point it uses a linear format, like a 16 or 32bit wave, and does not have the luxury of those 8 exponential bits.

3. You are correct that plug-ins may be overdriven, however in your scenario, you could just set the prepre-gain slider on the master channel’s limiter to -12db instead of turning your channels down -12 db. It would be the same thing mathematically.

4. I think you might be confusing when you say you “set the limiter at -.1db”. This limiter does not give you the option to set the max db. It is probably hard coded to operate at 0db. What you set was the pre gain.

I am not saying that your experience with improved sound quality is fake. It is real I am sure, however it is probably the result of hitting a master limiter/compressor/mastering-plugin too hard and does not have to do with internal “summing”.

]]> By: gbsr http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-3049 gbsr Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:57:27 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-3049 related ableton live specifics: http://tarekith.com/misc.htm related ableton live specifics: http://tarekith.com/misc.htm

]]> By: wire to the ear » » Happy Birthday to Wire to the Ear!!! http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-2188 wire to the ear » » Happy Birthday to Wire to the Ear!!! Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:23:14 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-2188 [...] I have a post I can point them to. Getting an unwanted distored sound from your DAW? Go here: keep-your-channel-faders-low… You don’t know how to bring in external hardware into Ableton Live? Go here: [...]

[...] I have a post I can point them to. Getting an unwanted distored sound from your DAW? Go here: keep-your-channel-faders-low… You don’t know how to bring in external hardware into Ableton Live? Go here: [...]

]]> By: Oliver Chesler http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/comment-page-1/#comment-2179 Oliver Chesler Sun, 28 Sep 2008 18:03:39 +0000 http://www.wiretotheear.com/2008/01/25/keep-your-channel-faders-low-and-the-master-at-0db/#comment-2179 Hi Spox. Thanks for stopping by. I agree we should be able to select a few tracks and adjust them all at once. I suspect Ableton wants to implement it. For now I make Groups and also use the Utility plug-in. Remember you can see Keyboard Shortcuts in the integrated info box (bottom left) and also in the manual. Good luck with the transition! Hi Spox. Thanks for stopping by. I agree we should be able to select a few tracks and adjust them all at once. I suspect Ableton wants to implement it. For now I make Groups and also use the Utility plug-in. Remember you can see Keyboard Shortcuts in the integrated info box (bottom left) and also in the manual. Good luck with the transition!

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